Season 4 Episode 12: Patty

[enemyofperfect]

We're so close to the end of the series, and I'm not ready, but I'm also really looking forward to tonight's episode! Whenever you get a chance to watch it, please share all your episode reactions with us in the comments right here. Spoilers and speculation welcome!

Comments

[enemyofperfect]

Well that was... a take.

I loved maybe the first ten or fifteen minutes of this episode. Shenanigans, clever little signs to read, Chidi's nerdtastic Neoplatonic joke, the Good Place folks having no idea about anything, I was having so much fun!

And then Eleanor decided that what heaven really needed was no-strings euthanasia, and I... have complicated feelings about that?

Like, I'm not saying that infinite existence definitely would be rewarding for humans. I don't imagine it's something we have a lot of data about. If infinity's long enough to learn every language, read every book, and meet every person, then maybe it's too long. How would I know, really?

But from a human psychology/utopia design perspective, I feel like Team Cockroach ignored a lot of low-hanging fruit while they made their beeline for Actual Permadeath. Patty said that what saved Chidi was his friends: so do the other humans in the Good Place have their friends and family with them, or were they separated by the binary morality of the afterlife? Would it help to be reunited? The Good Place architects are canonically pretty clueless about how humans work: did anyone ever consider just not letting them fry their brains with orgasms that last centuries? Like, would capping that at around half an hour or so lead to any gains in overall contentment?

Underneath all my logic chopping, I found this episode unexpectedly troubling for some personal reasons. If you'd like to read about how Eleanor's solution collided with my mental health history, I've got an entry about it up on my journal! And for everyone else, please enjoy the complimentary stardust milkshakes. (They're vegan, lactose free, and probably only mildly habit forming!)

[erinptah]

My thoughts are similar to your thoughts! It started out exciting, and then kinda went off the rails.

As of a couple episodes ago, our heroes had had literal years to ponder the question of "how would we rework the points system and redesign the Bad Place," and they were still scrambling to put together a proposal at the last minute.

Now they're faced with the challenge of redesigning the Good Place, and they supposedly just...whip out the best solution on their first day?

And then immediately put it into action, no design challenges for Janet, no need for approval from the Judge, no nothing?

And I do actually believe the premise that infinite time is Too Long. A human mind who's put through that will eventually reach the point where what they genuinely want, and need, and deserve, is to Stop and Rest. (I wrote a Wizard of Oz fic about that once...)

But I don't think the episode built up to "any of these characters have reached that point" in a convincing way. Especially not when, you're right, there are all these other changes they could've tried first!

One more to add: if "choose to peacefully shut down your system" was the solution these souls were looking for, wouldn't they have been...asleep?

Simulated sleep is still an option in the real Good Place, right? Snuggle up in a nice fluffy bed, turn on some soothing music and switch off the lights, then have Janet give you something that puts you to sleep indefinitely. You're covered! You can do it with the already-existing Good Place mechanics, no need to wait for someone to change the rules and then take your chances on metaphysical mystery doors. You can even include directions like "wake me up if so-and-so happens," so there's no risk of missing something cool in the future because you're too permanently-discorporated to experience it.

...on a totally different note, I'm still disappointed that none of the characters have spent a thought on Simone, Brent, and Catty Gay Blogger The Writers Never Did Anything With. They'll probably get something in the finale, but it's a missed opportunity that we haven't gotten any follow-up already (or, better yet, get them on-screen reacting in person to the post-experiment fallout).

[enemyofperfect]

I could definitely believe either way about infinity and the human mind. It's beyond my ability to imagine, and people's intuitions about it differ enough that I could even buy that the answer varies from person to person. But I love your thought about sleep as a less final alternative, and one already available to them at that! It's so obvious now that you've pointed it out, too.

And ugh, I so much wish we could have had Simone in this episode. She's a literal brain scientist, she would definitely have had some thoughts to add to the discussion!

[thatwasjustadream]

I thought it was just me having missed something - those characters truly just did go away, didn't they?

It's not unusual for a show to trip on itself trying to wrap things up, and that's what this whole season kind of feels like to me. :\

[erinptah]

Yeah, that last line sums up my feelings pretty well.

[jadelennox]

I don't disagree that this closing period has been weaker, and this episode wasn't among the strongest. But I think the reason I was happy with their solution is that I've been ethically unhappy with all the available choices. This probably ties into my own philosophies -- I find the idea of an afterlife to be an existential horror. (If they're not thinking about the people left behind in life, how can it be good? And if they are, how can they be not suffering?) So creating an exit door is just such a relief to me: the idea of heaven that's just the good parts of life but completely endless really is so grim.

But I don't disagree with you that they didn't earn it.

[enemyofperfect]

I really appreciate you sharing your opinion on this -- obviously I had my own reaction, but the excellent questions you ask in your parenthetical highlight a whole other side of this I hadn't been considering. It makes me think about Abigail Nussbaum's interesting criticism of season three and its decision to examine morality in a world stripped of most of the inherent constraints of life on Earth; I wonder if maybe I've accepted that jettisoning of the concerns of the real world a little farther than I would in a less sprightly and stylized series. Because of course you're right -- to accept happiness in heaven and not even consider the plight of people still living seems remarkably cold.

It keeps teasing at the back of my mind that the finale might involve a return to Earth in some form (as many other people have speculated), but I can't decide if I think that's the way they're going to go or not.

[st_aurafina]

I'm not ready omg!!

[enemyofperfect]

I know! How is the finale so soon???

[thatwasjustadream]

I had to miss this epi due to a work function - and I also managed to put my Hulu on hiatus a couple of weeks too soon, so...right now I can't watch it w/o paying $2.99. And this season isn't inspiring me to pay $2.99, so.....

I take it the epi went went straight for 'the only real freedom in the afterlife is oblivion," yes?

It would make sense- they've hit on most of the commonly held possibilities: heaven, hell, purgatory, evolution of the soul via reincarnation. I guess maybe it's a good sign that they went for oblivion the episode before last - there's still time for a twist of some sort.

I can't imagine what it'll be. I guess I'll have to make sure to be home to watch it. :)

[erinptah]

I'm watching the latest episodes on the NBC website -- might be an option in your region too? There's ads, but it's free.

It's not quite as straightforward as "oblivion" -- I rewatched that scene, and transcribed the whole explanation:


Chidi: "We're gonna set up a new kind of door. Somewhere peaceful. So that, when you feel happy and satisfied and complete, and you want to leave The Good Place for good, you can just walk through it, and your time in the universe will end."

Tahani: "You don't *have* to go through it if you don't want to. But you *can*. And hopefully, knowing that you don't have to be here forever will help you feel happier while you are."

Audience guy: "What will happen when we go through it?"

Janet: "Well, we don't really know, exactly. All we know is, it will be peaceful, and your journey will be over."

Michael: [Do everything you want while you're here,] "...and when you're ready, walk through one last door, and be at peace. Does that sound good?"

[Audience cheers.]


So, since "it's outside this sphere of existence, and we don't know the specifics, but it'll be peaceful and your journey will be over" is already a common Earth-based description of Heaven...what they've really done is create meta-Heaven.

Which IMO only raises more questions. If Janet is *making* this door, why doesn't she know what's on the other side, and how are they so sure it'll be nice? If their goal is to recreate a set of circumstances on Earth, why wouldn't behind-the-door just recreate the circumstances of the Good Place, with the same fundamental problem? And if the problem really is solved behind-the-door, why couldn't they just put that solution into action on *this* side of the door?

...I feel like I've been on a regular cycle of "this feels unsatisfying, but let's wait for the next episode, maybe they'll make it better" this season. With only 2 episodes left, I'm still curious and definitely gonna watch, but I'm not setting my expectations too high, you know?

[thatwasjustadream]

Ah, thanks for the tip on the web site- I tried every mobile and streaming option last night but failed to try the web site, lol.

Well, I have to say I neither loved nor hated the epi - which is how I've felt about it all season. I think looking back at it from some future point the most pivotal, impactful moment for me will have been the end of S3. It made me cry my eyes out, something few stories do. And that 'what's it all about' convo between a grieving Eleanor and Janet rang so raw and true. Gah. *That* was amazing story telling.

Anyway - I guess I'm not surprised they touched on both oblivion and the concept of immortality being a recipe for horrible ennui. The later is such a huge trope, it almost had to get a nod.

There are other potential fixes that jump right to mind: Give the people who need windmills to tilt at some windmills interspersed with stretches of peace; Give the luxury and sensations seekers endless milkshakes and orgasms; give the purpose-driven humans to tend to. Angelic duties.

Or, you know, just make it so a human sense of time passing isn't a thing once you aren't human anymore. But if they solved it last night, we wouldn't get two more half hours next week.

Maybe all shows feel like they're barreling down some weird, bumpy road in the final season - a trend I've noticed with
a lot of my faves. Endings are hard, and few stick the landing.

They could have simply said that the Final Door leads to becoming one with the universe- part of the fabric, but not a conscious part. I think they didn't go there because we'll see the characters all departing at their chosen times this week - I fear they may go heartstrings with it, which I am not sure wouldn't be awful. I hope they go as wild and inventive as that Season Two premiere - i.e. go out with some *fun* please!

[erinptah]

They could have simply said that the Final Door leads to becoming one with the universe- part of the fabric, but not a conscious part.

Yeah, this is how they fix death in His Dark Materials, and it's really fulfilling and believably hopeful. The worldbuilding that led up to it was different, so it wouldn't work the same with The Good Place, but it could've been satisfying in its own way! Definitely more so than Magical Oblivion Mystery Door.

Same re: the heartstrings ending :/

I've been keeping up with the podcast, which has people from all different parts of the show's creation talk about behind-the-scenes stuff, and any time there's a heartstrings-tugging scene they'll talk about how much people cried at the table read.

On the one hand: having writers who care is better than the alternative! On the other: it sometimes feels like their approach is "we're all completely on-board with this thing, so let's just indulge and roll around in it for a while" -- and they stop doing the work to bring the audience on board. So if you aren't there already (even if you're pretty close, and could've been brought the rest of the way with a few more scenes of work), it'll just leave you cold. And that would be a rough way to close the whole thing out.

[thatwasjustadream]

I'm going to have to read His Dark Materials. I think of it as YA, which isn't my first choice to read, but I take it that's not entirely the case? I keep bumping into references to it so maybe it's time to get it read!

Agreed on that last point. I hate to knock the show too much - it'll likely always stand out as a top ten favorite of mine, ever - but like a lot of franchises, I probably won't look forward to re-watching the last season.

There's still hope for the finale being a fun ride. :}

[erinptah]

HDM is more like Harry Potter or The Hobbit, in the sense that it's kid-friendly but loooong. It doesn't have any of what I think of as the stock tropes of YA -- there's no love triangles, there are complex and active/competent characters of all ages, the worldbuilding is extremely dense.

(Our first POV character is already familiar with a lot of it, too -- I was seriously confused when I read the first book as a kid, because there are so many weird concepts and alternate-universe terms that it doesn't stop to explain. Definitely a series that benefits from rereading, at any age!)

It's not a comedy like TGP, but if you want another series that sets up a cosmology for how souls/the afterlife/religion works and then explores the fallout, it's well worth checking out.

...also, I bet Lyra and Eleanor would get along swimmingly.

[enemyofperfect]

I'm so glad you were able to watch the episode! Despite everyone's lukewarm feelings about the way this season is wrapping up...

Your thoughts about possible fixes are great. Especially after our main cast found such meaning in helping each other, it's strange to have that element lacking here. (Unless they're planning to bring that out in the finale?)

I hope they go as wild and inventive as that Season Two premiere - i.e. go out with some *fun* please!

Yes, please!

[yourlibrarian]

Given that our time in the actual Good Place was going to be short since the season had a lot that needed to be wrapped up, it clearly wasn't going to end in simply everyone-being-happy-in-it-the-end. I figured they were going to run into some surprises.

My first pleased reaction was to realize that they filmed this at the Getty Museums in L.A. Although about half of it would have been on a soundstage, this would have involved several days there of shooting -- I wonder how they managed that without closing down the whole place?

I found myself unsurprised that they noticed issues pretty quickly (even without Patty spelling things out). I felt that the real crux of the problem was spelled out when Michael reviewed the solutions the designers were mulling over on their whiteboard (wait until Beyonce arrives was amusing). But things like "more hoverboards" and "fewer hoverboards" kind of spelled out the problem -- other than seesawing between more or less of something, when you have all eternity to deal with, how can anything be novel? Plus, of course, this was a group of people that had had no one new to interact with in a very long time.

My first thought was wondering why the people in the GP hadn't simply formed friendships and long-term ties like our heroes have, if that was considered the key to long-term happiness and fulfillment? We don't see any of them connected to anyone else. Surely part of the reason they were there was because they had done so much good for other so selflessly in their lives to begin with?

And then that's when I realized that such people would be particularly unfulfilled in GP, at least long-term, because they were never built to be the sort of people who could simply think of themselves non-stop. And while this still didn't explain why these doers couldn't have banded together to have reformed the GP on their own (which is why, I suppose, the whole brain deterioration thing was brought in), it did suggest why they never formed the same sort of deep connections with others. Because the reason our four plus eventually Michael and Janet formed such a tight team was because their initial meetings all involved having to overcome a major problem together. Even when they didn't, at first, realize they needed help, they always did better when they began working together.

So our team has spent hundreds of lifetimes trying to solve problems together and overcoming some really spectacular odds. No matter how delightful the GP seemed at first (and Michael's enjoyment was certainly short lived) they were going to start seeing the cracks quickly because it's part of what made them a team to begin with.

As to the solution, it seems like what it was -- a short-term fix. If the biggest problem is the never ending of a life without challenges, then the solution is to provide an ending. But it can't be the only solution and I suspect that Michael, whose personality has been established as someone who always wants to keep fiddling with and creating things, is not going to find that a solution for long either. By comparison with the challenges of his neighborhood, he's going to need a lot more to do.

So I'm waiting to see what more is yet to come.

[taiga13]

My feelings were similar. I quite liked the idea that humans aren't meant to live for eternity, that eventually we'd want it to end. But it puzzled me that no one considered the idea of giving people in the Good Place WORK to do. Chidi's idea of paradise was to keep working on his book about moral philosophy. Isn't that what Patty would want to do too? Keep learning and teaching? Did the Good Place architects actively discourage them from working? No need to cook because all your food you most desire is available on demand, etc. Given that the argument was that humans couldn't continue to learn and grow after they're dead, maybe work isn't an option for them either. They didn't think Patty COULD learn more mathematics or philosophy after she was dead, so they told her she couldn't.
The question about reunification with loved ones is a good one too. Does being an orgasm machine mean you don't connect to your fellow humans, that some degree of suffering is required to do that? But how could you be happy if your loved one wasn't in the Good Place?
The more I think about the Good Place the more it feels like an opium dealer.

[yourlibrarian]

That seems like a real possibility, yes. Because you're right about Chidi and surely there were many others with similar ideas of how to spend their afterlives. And I got the impression with the guy who kept asking his Janet for things, that this sort of helplessness became ingrained.

Yes, I imagine a lot of people in the GP were separated from the people they'd care about in their lifetimes. So they couldn't have been happy unless they forgot about them.

The team running GP also, as we saw, took forever to decide on anything and that anything was generally useless as well. So maybe that ethos spread.

[enemyofperfect]

Given that the argument was that humans couldn't continue to learn and grow after they're dead, maybe work isn't an option for them either. They didn't think Patty COULD learn more mathematics or philosophy after she was dead, so they told her she couldn't.

Oh, that's such an interesting thought! It would be so disheartening to have your passions taken away, as well as your loved ones and your entire previous life...

I really have to agree with your opium comparison, too.